It's all too easy for those not in an administrative position or upper-level management position to see those levels of leadership as detached at poor at leading, all the while refusing to acknowledge their lack of understanding of what it takes to fill that role. Upper-level management has a difficult job because the balance of the organization rests on their shoulders, but regardless of the understanding between the rank and file and the administration, individuals occupying those roles most constantly monitor their leadership ability. In this final episode of the series on leadership, we discuss strategies for these individuals to consider to help maintain an effective relationship with the rank and file and/or improve on these important skills. Join us in the conversation.
It's all too easy for those not in an administrative position or upper-level management position to see those levels of leadership as detached at poor at leading, all the while refusing to acknowledge their lack of understanding of what it takes to fill that role. Upper-level management has a difficult job because the balance of the organization rests on their shoulders, but regardless of the understanding between the rank and file and the administration, individuals occupying those roles most constantly monitor their leadership ability. In this final episode of the series on leadership, we discuss strategies for these individuals to consider to help maintain an effective relationship with the rank and file and/or improve on these important skills. Join us in the conversation.
Team One breach, breach breach, you're listening to breach your mind. Hey, guys, welcome back to breach your mind, hope everything's going good for you. As last couple of weeks have gone, you got me and Chris here with you. And continuing in our segments on leadership, today's episode is going to be the discussion on upper management that, uh, that section of management or section of the company that often gets looked at as being disconnected from everyone else, for one reason or another. So that'll be the continuation of the conversation on leadership. This is the third segment and final segment, at least for now in this conversation. And it's worth noting that both Chris and I have not been in upper management and our current professions. So we're going to be speaking from the terms of how we see it from our current positions. And in doing so we're, you know, we're going to have to be realistic, and give concession to the fact that we don't know everything that goes on in upper management. So there, we know, there are facets of upper management, especially when you get to talking about budgets and, and a bunch of different aspects of business life, because regardless of the profession, there is a business aspect, especially when you get to upper management. You're talking human resources and finances and all of that and equipment. So there we are realistic. And we'll give concession to the fact that we don't understand or know every aspect of it. But I believe the one aspect of it, and Chris can correct me if I'm wrong here, or if he believes I'm wrong. The one aspect that will remain constant, regardless of these outside mitigating factors are people, the people up and down the chain, regardless of position, are the same. And while we all have our different personalities are different minds, and we are individuals in and of ourselves, you know, there is still a level of respect that everyone expects from themselves. And there are certain aspects of human nature, that will never change based on your position. Or I say will never, I believe history has taught us that ethics is something that can go out the window. But that's another conversation for another time. And not that that's a focus, and then this episode, but there there are certain aspects of human nature that will and should never change, regardless of your position. And I think that's where we're going to kind of get into and, Chris, I'll kind of lead off here. As far as the, I say, I don't have any upper management or executive level experience in that. But at the same time, that's not entirely true. Depending on how you want to look at it, obviously, having a very, extremely small, general contracting business for a couple of years. Doesn't really equate to, you know, a big company or big owners, organisation or anything like that. But that in itself, I did have my own general contracting business at one time. I've got experience in building houses and doing different things. And that was a matter of fact, I think I brought it up in the first episode of Breach Your Mind. You know, it was an idea my brother brought to me, he came to me and you know, he was tired of, he was tired of working for somebody else putting money in somebody else's pocket and wanted to go out and kind of get our own thing. And I've never been 100% geared toward that. So it was kind of a leap of faith in doing it. But we wound up doing it we started our own general contracting business. And along the way, we had a difference of opinion and how a business should run or or whatnot. So we wound up separating on that aspect. And I went out on my own. And one of the things that was my biggest product or problem, and I discussed this with you offline. As my one of my biggest faults when I had my business was I never had any employees. The consideration was there to try to hire somebody and bring them on and have them help me with the work. But at the same time, I felt that no one and I still think that no one's ever gonna care about Your business the way you do, you know, your heart and passion is vastly different from someone else's. So there's, there's never, there's never anyone that's going to have the exact same passion for what you're trying to do as you do. And that being the case, my fault was because I felt that way, I didn't want to hire somebody, you know, I didn't want to bring somebody on, that wasn't going to feel the same as I did. Because I mean to me at the time, and I was in my early 20s, to me at the time, they were going to have a lesser product. And that's not what I was looking for, I wasn't looking for somebody that was going to come out and half heart the work and create a lesser product, you know, I had always kind of gone by the philosophy that if a company can a new company can survive the first two years, then you got a good chance at surviving. And by this time, I think I was really a year in and I was now doing it on my own. And I wanted my channel my company to have the best chance it could. And to me, the best chance was by myself because I wasn't going to give anybody else chance to screw it up for me. And to me, that was a fault. Because as a business owner, what I should have been looking at is, can I hire somebody and bring them on as an employee that that's going to be able to help benefit the company help the company move forward. And if I brought somebody on with the exp experience that I had, or even more, well, then I can double my output, I could double the jobs that we can get done. Because now I can send that person out to go do these jobs while I'm doing this job and vice versa, or work on them together and get it done faster. So I really denied myself as a business owner and having a successful business because I was I had too little faith and people had too little faith and individuals that they weren't going to be able to do what I wanted to get done. And even though I'm only in the I guess you would say middle management section of things in my life now I've been in it a while and I see the value in people a lot easier now see it a lot more, a lot more open minded. Now a lot of that came with education and experience that have come over the years since you paid so much are you so eloquently put it about me being pretty old in the last segment. But, uh, it's something that came with time and experience that I've, you know, really started to understand the value on people, and what they can help you accomplish, you know, not what they can do for you, but what they can help you accomplish. And being in that middle management role, I've been able to apply that philosophy, you know, in my current profession. And I mean, to me, it's been a success, you know, to my supervisors, that are talking to me about the watch and telling me that, you know, they they're satisfied and pleased with the work that we do and, and things like that. So to me, it's been a success. So looking at it, from that standpoint, you know, my failure, which was a learning experience, my failure as a business owner, you know, was because of my own doing because I didn't have that faith in people that I was willing to bring them on and take that risk to say if I can, you know, make my company better. And I think that's I think that applies all across the board. I think it applies not just in business, but you know, in our current profession I think it applies in the military, though that's a vastly different organisation all and of itself. So that's, that's, that's kind of where kind of where I want to lead it off with is you know, just having the faith and people I think from an administrative standpoint, from an upper level upper management level standpoint, I think it's important for you to see the value in the people that are down the chain you know, see the value that those people can bring to your company, bring to your business bring to your organisation and really do the best you can to bolster that you know, empower those individuals to be able to take that stand and do the best they can. I don't remember if I said it earlier or not, but you know a lot of those a lot of those techniques and skills and things that we talked about for the middle management I think they also apply for the upper level management but with all the extra added stuff that it brings something else you know, what's your what's your What's your opinion on at least that particular because I got somewhere else I'm going to go with it as well but um you know, I think the key word here is disconnect. Sorry, keyword here is definitely disconnect. But it's, I'm not going to put the all the blame on the upper level management, or the administration. Yes, there's a disconnect from them to us. And when I say us, I'm talking about the guys, you know, putting in putting in the 12 hours or, you know, whatever you work that 10, 8, 12 whatever you work. Yeah. And you guys are that you guys are the, the operation, right? Whether that be law enforcement, where, you know, we talked about on the patrol side, you know, we're kind of the face of the public, that's who they see, they see us every single day, and we deal with the public every single day, upper level management does not in our minds, there's a disconnect, they don't know, oh, they don't know this job. They don't know how it is blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, I'm gonna reverse that role. Real quick. All right. And we don't know what they deal with. Yep. I agree. We have no, we have no freaking clue. Yep. Okay. So the fault is not just on them, the Fall is off on us. And a lot of times we don't think about that. We complain. And we fuss. And, you know, we don't ever step back, take a deep breath and say, hold up, wait a minute. There's a reason why they that they're putting this information out. There's a reason why they're making this new policy. There's something going on? Yeah, we don't take the time. We just think they're picking on us. That they don't care about it. That's not true. I don't think that's I don't think that's true at all. And I think individuals but not as a there there may be those individuals in those positions that will do that. But I don't I agree with you. I don't think it's a organisational thing. I don't think as a whole, I think, yeah, you may have a few bad apples, whatever. But I'm talking about as a whole. Right, right. Um, and, and I'm not trying to bash any administration, you guys have a hard job. I mean, they have a hard job, because they have to, not only do they have to answer, and they got to worry about the well being of, of their employees. Right, they have to worry about us, right. But they also have a, either, whether it's a product that they're trying to sell, and they're trying to put out the best product possible, because you got to think, even though I've never worked in, in that side of the house, or even in that realm of business, those guys, the CEOs, the guys who created the company, they love their product. They're all there. I mean, they're all in on their product, they think their product is the greatest thing since sliced bread. And, you know, they're passionate about it. So they want to have the best thing possible. And I respect that. I do. You know, but I think what what happens is there's, there's somewhere in the middle, that both sides of the house, they lose something, they lose that, that that connection. And I think that's what everybody deals with on in any profession, is that you just when you reach that level, sometimes you lose it, there's there's more going on, that you forget about, you know, the lower end of things. So that's just my opinion. Yeah, no, and that's, I'm glad you said that, because that's exactly where, where I was, you know, going to go with it. Next was the disconnect. You know, obviously, as you move up through the ranks of your organisation, regardless of your, your job, as you move up through the ranks, there is a natural disconnect. It's a natural disconnect, in my opinion, a natural disconnect that happens as you move up because now you're taken away from those other tasks that you were so accustomed to doing. You know it you understand it and, and you know how you did it when you were there. But as your time goes on, and the further away from those particular jobs, you are, that natural disconnect happens. And likewise, like you said, there's that disconnect from our standpoint on it, because all we can see what's is what's in front of our face. And if we're not willing to take that step back and you know, look at a broader picture or what have you. You know, we get lost in it as well. And I had actually had a conversation with someone about it not too terribly long ago about that natural disconnect. It's fine that it's I say it's fine, it's natural, and you can't stop it but the natural disconnect happens. But my problem is when we realise that there's a natural disconnect, and then we ignore it. Because while you can't stop the natural disconnect, you can try to bridge the gap that's there. And the only way in my opinion that you can do that is by keeping that relationship with the individuals. Lower in the ranks lower in the the job titles You know, as far as like a structure goes, not individuals. But when you when you know that there's that natural disconnect, and you intentionally ignore it after it becomes relevant. That's where that's where I see, you know, as an administrator things kind of get off the rails, because now, instead of trying to do something to bridge that gap in that disconnect, instead of trying to bridge that gap, you're just allowing it to continue. And by allowing it to continue, the willingness for everyone to be open minded, and try to see things from all standpoints, becomes less, you know, then you start getting more into that us versus them mentality. And like we discussed earlier, the us versus them mentality is, is not beneficial, it's not beneficial for an individual individual, or it's not beneficial for the organisation or the company. And it just doesn't need to be that way. Some of the best companies in the world have got such a smooth transition between the top and bottom, you know, the guys at the top, you know, they know the guys on the bottoms name, they're they're walking around shaking our hands, Hey, man, how's things going, how's your weekend, and I'm not saying you gotta be personal with anybody, but they have that smooth transition, because they work to bridge that gap. And if you don't do it, you know, then how are you benefiting anybody. And the only way you can do it is by making that effort to go out and, and keep in touch with your people keep in touch with what they're doing. Specifically, like in our career field, mean crap and think think back over all the social unrest and everything that has happened, I know you've, you've seen it where you are, and, and, and, and down here. With all the social unrest, you know, those of us that are on the front lines of it, those of us that are out there in the public, and thankfully, here, we haven't had anywhere near the effect that some of the other agencies and departments and things like that across the country have had. But on a smaller scale, we've had some that have that have, you know, been involved in the social the social unrest and social stuff, you know, that, that really those of us that are having to go out there and handle that face to face with individuals, it affects you. And then you have individuals that are up in upper management. That because they're not that natural disconnect is there, they don't, they don't have the same feelings, emotions and concepts that you do work in in that every single day. So you know, they will do things. And then of course, those of us that are out there going out and doing it, we're like, what, why are we doing this? Now, you know, what, like, What don't we have enough to handle right now, without this extra stuff. And it's that natural denis, disconnect that keeps individuals from the top and going, you know, what they right, you know, maybe we can hold off on X, Y or Z. And not pointing that out as a fault by any means. As far as an individual thing unless you recognise and ignore it anyway. But, you know, we've got the change in our career, we've got the changing laws, the constantly changing social construct, and social social contract between, you know, the public, and the public safety environment. And that stuff that those of us that are still on the road and still going out and being, as you said, that the face of the organisation those are things that we deal with on a constant basis. And back when one of the other podcasts I talked about getting lost in the little things, that's what winds up happening with those of us that are out there on the road, the admin is looking at things from a different standpoint, but the, the upper management is looking at things from a different standpoint, they've got a different picture, or a skewed picture or however you want to view it, of how things are, what things are and what needs to get done. And because they're not dealing with everything we have to deal with on a daily basis, you know, they may make some policy changes or Institute some new things that we need to do. And because of the disconnect between us and them and them and us, you know, we wind up looking at it like why are you reading this now? You know, why? Why are you doing this? The good idea fairy? Yes, the good I mean, that's, that sums that up. You know, I agree. I mean, it's it's hard. Both sides of the house are hard. It's, there's no, you got to compromise. And I like what you said I want to touch on it. Because it kind of goes back to the second segment we did where we talked about you know, get to know your people. Obviously, upper level, depending on the size of the company, you're not going to know, everybody, right? You just it's you're not going to, you know, you make the best effort you can. But if you walk onto the assembly line one day, you just want to see how operations are going, you know, and you go in, and you talk to those guys and say, Hey, how are y'all? You know, how's everything going? What can I do to make things a little bit better? And just hear him out, even if you just hear him out. And if it's something you can't implement, you can't implement it? That's fine. But just the fact that, you know, you give them an opportunity to express Hey, this is a boss man, this this is might be something, you know, we'd be interested in. Yeah, that could go along. That could go a long way. What did what did we was the award ceremony that we kind of that, that we got implemented? That was kind of it wasn't necessarily like it was, you know, there were some, some attaboys that were handed out in a ceremony like end of year. Yeah. And that made people feel valued. Yeah. You know, it didn't have to be some, you know, something you wore on your uniform. It was a piece of paper that said, Hey, we recognised you did this, thank you. Yeah, I mean, one of the one of the things that I got actually come, it was given to me by the agency, obviously. But it was spurred from you guys. You know, you guys had all put in a recommendation to the agency to recognise me for me or my, I guess, my leadership ability or skills or however you want to put it? And and honestly do that, that meant the world to me. Because even though even though you know, I'm quite familiar with all the people that I work with on the watch, and we talk all the time. It was that it was that validation of the efforts for what I had done. Because you know, me, I never, I'm never the one to go look what I did. You know, it's always you guys, you guys are the ones doing the work. I'm just there, making sure the train don't come off the tracks. But you guys are the ones doing the work. And, you know, y'all took the opportunity to try to make the and y'all didn't know, y'all didn't know if when y'all sent that up to admin that they were going to, you know, yeah, this is something that's, that's worth, you know, mentioning. But it was something it meant a lot to me, just because you guys were taking the time to recognise the stuff that I was doing. Right. And that was huge to me. You know, it really was I held on to it. And, you know, I still got it now. And I was sitting there looking at it. One thing I was, that's awesome. Like we talk and we say things face to face. But this was this was an acknowledgement amongst the whole agency. know of that, and yeah, man, I couldn't agree Yeah, no, I definitely think just the the, not everybody's out there looking for awards or anything but an Attaboy every once in a while. It goes a long way It means you know, and like, I want to reiterate, you can't you may not know everybody, you know, but do your best, you know, that upper level, do your best to do please recognise faces. You know, just jYou know, just, just this past week, I had a couple of people that I was talking to, and I believe one had been here a couple years, other ones been here a few years. And they've made the comment to me that they believe there are people in upper management that still have no idea that they've been there. You know, what even made the comment that every time he has a conversation with upper management, you know, it's almost as if the upper management introduces themselves again, it's like, I don't know how many times I've been introduced to this individual. And I was like, wow, that's, you know, that. Obviously, with our agency, it's you know, it's it's got its size to it. But that was that was something that that I was like, Wow, man, because because we're we're a bigger agency, but we're not that big. And these two individuals from their standpoint on the the zone side of it, looked at the upper management as you don' even remember that you hired me I've been here for years now. A d you don't even remember th t you hired me, you know, an that immediately sparked the t ought my mind of, oh crap, you know, this is something that I n ed to try to figure out and try o get a handle on and give up on because how does that ffect them? As far as my stan point goes? How is that aff cting their morality? You know, ow is that affecting them moral with the agency wh n the administration doesn't kn w who they are? Yeah. Or at least gives the impression an They may know who they are. Bu they give the impression. They don't know who they are. I mean when you've already dedicated it's understandable, fir t few months, you know, bu when you've already got yours under your belt, you know, it ca be a little, it can be a littl shot to the rib cage, and thing like that happen. And of cou se, I you know, my response so I m and I meant it, and I believ it's harder, that's what's best, because you guys aren't u here all the time. You know, yo come here, you do your job, ou're only in here for as long s you got to be. And then you ounce in, you're out the door, ou're not, you know, walking round shaking hands and being n the Sometimes it may not be a bad thing that they don't know your name. Yeah. Or they don't recognise you. Yeah. That's a basic training thing there, sir. I mean, exactly. Like, sometimes it's good to fly under the radar. And that's another another point like, you guys also got to step back and say, Okay, well, what are these guys also dealing with? Yeah, just because they don't know who what are those guys doing with, you know, the media, you know, all these other cases that they've got, you know, they've got to, you know, check on and make sure that they're, you know, people are calling them, you know, with complaints and saying, Hey, you know, you know, what's going on with this case? You know, my family members, you know, worried about this, and that. They've got a lot on their plate. Yeah. And I'm not trying to make excuses for him. No, I'm not making excuses for anybody here. But it's, but it's definitely it's definitely something to think about. Yeah. And it's, and it's part of that whole thing of what you were saying earlier about taking a step back and looking at the broader scope. How many times you tell me, or how many times have you heard me say, you can't see the forest for the trees right now. You know, and that's the same thing, you can only see things from your perspective. And if you're not willing to take that step back, and try to consider other aspects of it, that's just how it's going to stay, it's gonna stay, you're not being able to see the forest for the trees, you're only gonna see right, what's right in front of your face. And, you know, especially with our particular career fields, you know, when you're talking about the, the social aspect of it, the social unrest, and the social aspect of it. Like I said earlier, it hasn't affected our community as much as it has other places across the country. But it is still a thing, you know, our upper admin are still getting phone calls about questions and comments and, and things that are being told to them, so they're having to deal with it from their standpoint. You know, so it's real easy, when they've got everything they've got to it's really easy for them not to, you know, take those little small efforts that people would think was nice. But at the same time, that's not an excuse not to, you know, when when time has it, you know, walk over to the other side of the house, walk down to the assembly line, and, you know, make your face sing, you know, they're there I have found. And granted, it's because of the time that that I've been here, you know, I'm pretty comfortable with just about everybody we work with top the bottom, and it's still kind of makes me smile and give me a little giggle when someone new gets on is like, Oh, well, so and so was speaking to me today or so I got to meet so and so today. I was like, okay, you know, I forget, it's too easy for me to forget to what it was like to be in that role. Yeah, and, you know, somebody in upper management, you know, acknowledged them or, or, you know, shook their hand or whatever the case may have been. It's easy for me because I've been there for so long, and I've gotten so comfortable with my relationship with all the individuals that I see them, you know, enamoured with meeting this person. I was like, it's just a just a the person. like that at the mid level. You have to remember that too. Yes. Because that because because if you if you downplay it, yep. Then that person you see I'm saying like, if you downplay it, because you're so used to it, oh, it's gonna you know, it's gonna affect you negatively. And I've fallen into that trap to you. How do you not know that person? You know, especially especially if it's early in the morning and you know, a cup of coffee hasn't kicked in yet. Okay, you haven't had your breakfast Yeah, okay. And well yeah, go Go away. Go away. Yeah, Leave Leave me alone. Leave me alone. Yes. Oh, Lord. But no i the military is and like we, like you said before, that's a whole other beast. But yeah, you know, I can talk on it a little bit. Um, thank you. dd 214. Yes, thank you. dd 214. You run into some really, really bad leaders. But then you run into some really out standing. Outstanding, upper level, level leadership. Yeah, and it's kind of, but it's weird, because the military has its own progression system. And you can be really, like a really horrible leader, and you can still reach that level. Yeah. You know what I mean? So, and I think that it can be that way, in any aspect and in, you know, you can be a bad leader, and you can just keep promoting and, and that's unfortunate. But it's gonna happen. Yep. And, and the people like us, you have to understand that, you don't got to get that and you've just, you know, you've got to deal with it, you got to deal with it. Because you're a, your job depends on it. You know what I mean? I mean, it does. You don't want to ruffle too many feathers. And, you know, get fired, that wouldn't be good. But you just kind of have to take it for what it's worth. And this is one thing that will stick with me forever. I learned this as a brand new 18 year old private, you're going to take the good and the bad from every leader that you have. Yeah. And then when you become a leader, you're going to you're going to say, I didn't like how that person did it. But I liked how that person and it's going to mould you into who you are. So kind of use it as a learning experience, like I was, That was that was the whole reason. That was the whole reason why, you know, wanted to go for the shift supervisor. Yeah, you know, not that I was under a bad supervisor. But I had my own ideas. And I saw what my supervisor or supervisors, because I had a couple different artists. But I saw how they did things. And there were good aspects, good and bad aspects from both of them. And I wanted the opportunity to do the best I could for my people. And the statement I always told myself was I wanted to be the sergeant I always wanted. I wanted to be that I wanted to be the leader that I always wished I had. And and it's not trying to speak negatively around the ones I've had before, or any other, you know, supervisor at the agency, it's not that it's a me thing. That was me, you know, I wanted to be the person I wanted to be led by. And, and I think if we think of it from an administrative standpoint, and upper level management standpoint, I think it can still apply there to go into that role wanting to be the admin or the upper management that you wish you had. Yeah, and, of course, you know, there's, there's always extra stuff that's going to come in and take away from it. But that's where, when you're a leader, a real leader that, you know, wants to have those qualities goes okay, you know, I've been bogged down with budgets, and I've been bogged down with human resource issues, and I've been bogged down with equipment issues, and that blah, blah, blah, blah, or for advertisement or product placement, or whatever the case is. I've been bogged down with that a lot, you know, any, take a couple of minutes to do X, Y, and Z, just to nurture that relationship with those in the rank and file. And like I said, not having not been in that position. Aside from my ignorance, I'm having my own business, it makes it tough to try to make sure you cover all of the aspects of it. But I think in general, if we can keep those things in mind, if we can just keep that, I guess the best way to say it is a humbleness, if we can keep the humbleness in mind, and not buy into our own BS. And try to be that leader that we wanted to have led us. I don't see how that's a, I don't see how that's going to be a failing combination. I don't see how we could be, I don't see how you can be a bad leader that way from from any level, especially from the upper management level. Yeah, no, and just and this is like one other thing we can quickly touch on. Um, and I think it's kind of really not really important, but I think it is very important. disseminating the responsibilities. Okay. You've got your job. Okay. Try to choose the best people for the next job. You know, I mean, try to be fair, I mean, fair is key. I mean, if there's sometimes you run into it where you you owe people favours and and, you know, you want them in one position, because you owe them a favour. That's good for you. But if they're not the best person for that job, don't, be fair. You know what I mean? Yeah, exactly. There's one way but obviously, that's not always in your control. But disseminate trust the people that you put in that position to do the job, don't micromanage. Because you're, it's a lose, lose lose. Because if you don't have the trust in the people that you promoted, how the heck do you expect the people that are underneath them to trust that, you know, it just, it's terrible. So make sure you disseminate and you, and you kind of back up and you let them you give them a task, just like what we talked about mid level? Give them a task, let them figure it out. Yeah, I think I think you'll get more production, a better product, and a happier staff or, you know, organisation, if you do stuff that way. That's that's just my that's just my opinion on that, like I said, I think both say, we've never been in that position. Well, I do know that. Another aspect that I've seen, obviously, upper level management, they don't have to explain reasonings to anyone, you know, they decide they want something done, they can obviously just say I want it done. But kind of going back to I think what we were talking to the last segment on when you talk about personal ownership and validation and things like that, the, the newer generation, and I hate to make this analogy, but I think it's the best way I can do it at the moment. The the newer younger generations coming up is the quintessential why generation tell me to do something and the responses why I had a trainee at one point. When I was in it, when I was the training officer for for a new hire. I said, Well, we're gonna have to do it this way. So well why, because this is what happened, if I'm not mistaken, it was somebody crashed a car into a telephone pole and tore off the bumper and, you know, extensive damage to the car. And by extensive I meant, you know, over $500 in damage. But a which nowadays, I guess could probably be a headlight. But the, the individual asked me, they were like, why, why? Why are we doing that, this is this person's car, they have the right to, you know, not fix their car or whatever they want? Yeah, you're 100 percent correct. But the telephone poles damaged and the car is damaged is the damage to the car is going to be in excess of the allowable limit for the statute. Well, I still don't understand why. So I literally had to sit down with the code section and walk backwards from the crime that we were going to charge with, had to walk backwards through the code section, and show them each individual step that led from one to the end of the criminal charge. And I think I was probably what opened my eyes to it more more than I've ever seen. It was we've got the why I said, I say generation, it's not a generational thing, it's a societal thing, or a social thing. But people want to know, a reason as to why they're being told or asked to do something, you know, and obviously, you know, as an administrator, you don't have to go into great detail. But thinking back to I can't remember the analogy momma used back then. But there was an analysis you something to the effect of, you get more flies with honey than Oh, you get more flies with honey than you do vinegar. So understanding the employees that you've hired, and knowing that they like to have this reason, while they're being asked or told to do something. If you take the standpoint of, well, I don't have to explain it. Well, technically, you're right. Technically, you're right, and nobody's gonna fault you on the technicality of it. But on the effectiveness of it is where you're going to get judged. Because when you can give a simple explanation without all the fluff and details what we're doing this for this reason. Now, they can make that association in their mind of why I'm being asked to do this one extra thing or there's one more thing because of this reason, not just because, well, you know, the good idea fairy, there'll be able to make that that connection, that Association, and they're more apt to make that change willingly than they are. If you don't, you know, if you just say, this is what I want done, go out and do it. Why? Because I said so. Like that's worked minimally as a parent for me and with my kids. You know why? You want me to do this? Because I said, so. Apparently I can do that though. I do I do this it's a it's the United States of me. In my home. It's acceptable. Yes, I believe there are some psychologists and psychiatrists that probably disagree with that. But I am. I'm not much of a fluff kind of guy. Well, nobody asked them. So it's okay. Exactly. What somebody may one day. Probably should. But know that why aspect of it, you know that? Because I said, so that doesn't work, especially when you're dealing with adults? Oh, because you said so? Well, you can go, you know, yourself. You know, how many times does that phrase been said or heard said, yeah. And just because of just because of the adult mindset, look, I'm an adult, you're not going to talk to me like a child, you know, and that mindset is, is, is toxic, you know, especially, especially once it creeps in, and it really sinks into somebody's head. When now, as the upper level management, or just leader in general. Now, you've got to work twice as hard to get past that one thing. It was like I was explaining to one of my kids, it doesn't matter how much good you do, you can do good for freaking ever. one bad thing is all it takes to take it down. Now that we're on that, yeah, I have some first hand experience, and that actually might have been present for one or two of those. But, you know, all it takes is that one thing, all it takes is that one thing and now, you know, that doesn't matter how many years of good was, it seems almost as if all those years no longer mean anything, they're completely erased. And this is the only thing you've done, and it's bad. And you have to work twice as hard. You know, if not even more than that, to rebuild the foundation that you've already created. And in leadership, especially from upper level, upper level management position, I would think that that's one area, you definitely want to try to not get into, you don't want to get into that area of where you've created a situation that you've lost the trust of those in the rank and file. And now you're trying to get cooperation and everything else from them. Because I mean, at the end of the day, especially in the economy we got now and in everything we got going on. What are you gonna do, fire them? What happens when you fire everybody that doesn't agree with you? Or doesn't give you the cooperation you want? You know, especially our profession, you're gonna fire all of them? Oh yeah, you're SOL, yeah, what are you gonna do? You know, you're going to, you're going to ask regular citizens to do our job. That's I mean, yet, technically, I guess you can in some aspects. But if that doesn't work, yeah, you know, so you have to find a way to keep your ego out of it. And not saying that they do. But you have to find a way to keep that ego out of it, so that you're willing to do that compromising thing. And in my opinion, it's just mine, and I will take ownership for my own. What is it hurting? What is it hurting? To give some kind of an explanation? You know, it's not hurting anything. If if they say, Well, you know, instead of this process on the assembly line, or instead of completing the reports, for this this way, we want you to do it this way now, or Why? Well, because we've, we've looked at it and done our research on it. And we feel like this is going to be a smoother and more easier transition more productive. And we're going to be able to increase the output because we're less than whatever the explanation is something some piece of fruit, some little snippet that people can hold on to, to make this justification on why they have to make this change. Yeah, and the fact that you gave them an answer. Yeah, we'll go long enough. I mean, they may be like, well, well, that's stupid. But at least they got an answer. Yeah. And at least they got an answer. Yeah, they're gonna remember the fact that you took the time to give them that you respected him as an individual as an employee enough to give them that you know, and and I think it's going to go a long way. No, I agree. I got I do have a funny story when it comes to the whole why thing and then I want to move on to one last thing, and I think we pretty much covered it. So you're talking about why. Right before we deployed we got some we got four new guys in the in the platoon to go ahead and deploy and one of them was 40 years old. How many people are in a platoon in my platoon, because we were a headquarters platoon. There was like a 20 of us, okay, but I think, you know, like I said, I'm pretty dated, I'd have to go back and look in the, in the manuals to give you an exact number of what specified a platoon. But I want to say about 20 of us that were deploying in this said headquarters platoon. One of them was from a different country, a Eastern Bloc country. And he was like, 40 years old. And he is just like, fresh out of basic training. Right. Great guy. I mean, great guy. But his favourite game, they for whatever reason, we had these conexus these big, those big metal shipping containers. Yeah. And this is what we were doing. We, you know, we had to pack all of our stuff in them to send them overseas, right? That's we had to get our stuff over there. Well, well, he, he loved the game of take it out and put it back in. That's what we call it, right? Because we would have to unload these damn 30 foot long shipping containers that were filled from top to bottom, just full of stuff, we'd have to unload it, lay it out. Somebody would have to come in like the company commander would have to come and look at it all and say, we got this check it off. You know, walking around with his hat off and his blouse off while the rest of us are sweating our balls off in that motor pool in Fort Stewart, Georgia was horrible. We're cussing him. We're like really look at this guy walking around the top on anyways, it's another story. But he you know Barna, I use his name but whatever Barna you he a, he loved him. And he'd he'd say, oh, Chris, we're going to go play the take it in and put it back game taking in and put back game. Like Yeah, we are. We got to do it. Well, he asked why one time. And I'll never forget, we had a we had a squad leader. And he asked why and our squad leader lost his shit. I mean, just lost it, could not believe that this, you know, he was basically private, but he wore the rank of specialist could not believe he asked why. And just lost his shit on him. And tensions were high, you know, we're getting ready to deploy. There's a lot going on, I get it. But there was no reason for him to lose his shit. I just want to know why we have to do this for the 20th time, you know? Yeah, I was. I was literally sitting here thinking that the whole time. Like, why? Why are you doing? Everybody was wondering, why not inventory it before you put it in? That? Yeah, deal is he was the only one that just actually had the balls to ask. And that was because he was 40 years old and didn't care. You know, but but we're, we're, you know, to go back to that is just give him a reason. He, I mean, he would have been perfectly fine with Well, you know, this is this is why we got it. There's a new layout format that we have to do that. And that's what it was, because the Coast Guard has to go and inspect all of them. Because they've got to go on the ships, or the planes to go, you know, and if it's not laid out, right in the weights off, it's gonna screw shit up. Right? There was an actual reason for it. But nobody was willing to explain it to them. And I didn't know. Do you think that the reason he went off was because he didn't know? Yeah, he was incompetent. So so so yes. Yes, to put it to put it mildly. He was incompetent. But but that's neither here nor there. But, you know, it was a task that he was given. And we were asked to go help him with it. And we were all fussing and complaining because it was 100 degrees in we were in an open cement, you know, parking lot where there's no shade. And we've already done it. 15 other times. Yeah. So I mean, I get it. But anyways, I had to share that story. Yeah, it was a good one. I always laugh about it. But um, the last thing I want to kind of touch on real quick, and I think that companies, agencies throughout the country, I think they have a problem with this. And it's kind of it's really key in our profession, especially in 2021. And that is the failure to evolve, the willingness to evolve. Okay, you know, and we, we, we see it, right? We we see what's happening every single day, right? We deal with every single day, there's new laws that we have to, you know, there's new procedures and new case law and stuff that that comes out that, hey, 15 years ago, that didn't apply. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah. Well, a lot of times when you when you get into the upper management, you kind of lose sight of that because you're not dealing with it on a day to day basis, right. So if somebody like if a if a sergeant comes to you He says, Hey, this just came out, just read it. One of our policies doesn't align with this. We need to get it fixed. It would behove you to get it fixed. Yeah, you know, and I think I think a lot of people, especially nowadays, they're starting to open up to that. But I, you know, prior to what we're going through right now, especially in law enforcement, I don't think they were willing to open their eyes to it. I think there's still some people in management, they're like, Well, we've always done it that way. So we're gonna keep, you know, yeah, you got to evolve with the times you've got to, and it's, and and in saying that, you know, as far as trying to still be objective about everything. I think it's also, I think it's also worth mentioning that we also as we're making the suggestion, because I mean, we're talking about stuff that's other than just policy. But the the flip side of that coin is, unless the reason is, unless the reason is, well, this is why we've always done it ain't no sense in doing it differently. You know, I've never operated that way. But we also have to keep in mind, that there may be reasons as to why we haven't done it, that those of us that are in the rank and file, we just may not be privy to the reason as to why certain changes haven't been made or certain. evolving has not occurred. You know, it could be a finance thing could be a staffing thing, the equipment thing. Oh, no, absolutely. But But if if the reason is, well, this is the way we've always done it, then yeah, that's, that's, that's most definitely an issue because times have changed. You know, socially, the society has changed mentality of change, people have changed. Well, on the business side, there could be new technology that comes out, yep. There'll be new technology that comes out. And somebody you know, it mid level says, Hey, boss, you guys are, you know, Monday morning meeting, Hey, boss, this new technology just came out, you know, well, it's, you know, it's been out for, you know, five years or so it's finally got down to where we can afford it. We should try to implement this new technology, it's going to help, you know, our production line, you know, tenfold? Yeah, don't be Don't be afraid at the upper level management to say, to take that idea and say, You know what, let's look into it. Yeah, don't just don't just shoot it down. Because it's something new when you're afraid to go to it. Yeah, I agree with that. That's what I'm kind of getting at is Yeah. And obviously, we can only talk on on the law enforcement side of the house. But it still applies to the other side, you know, to the to the private sector, it's Don't be afraid to evolve with the times don't, you know, don't be stuck in your own ways. Because their minimum at least not that's not good. At bare minimum at least try. At least try at least Yeah, that was that was one of the things that we did with with and we still do now, I think happens a lot less than what it used to. But that was one of the things that that I've always been real big on is, you know, you know, when having when we did have our shift meetings. I would wind up asking you guys. You know? Is there anything that y'all see, we can do different? Is there any new ideas you want to try? Is there any, anything y'all want to do? Now did you get to where it was something that we voted on as a group, because it affected everybody. But it was always one of those things of if we could get agreement on it, let's try it. Now, if it doesn't work, we go back to the way we were doing, we go back to the drawing board, and we figure something else out, you know, we at least gave it the attempt to see if it was going to be better. And I think I think that's something that's, that's really important, you know, because, one, you're given your, you're given your rank and file that empowerment, you're given them that sense of ownership and contributing and so on. And at the same time, you're allowing these new ideas to come in. And who knows that one of those ideas may be the thing that sets you apart from everyone else, you know. Take advantage of the low hanging fruit, the stuff that, you know, hey, this is going to make our you know, the organisation happy. It's an easy catch, easy grab, we can pull it right off the tree. And instantly you can get some gratification out of it. Yeah, just, you know, don't don't be afraid to change it up a little bit, because I think I think it can go a long way for morale for you know, productivity, you know, and that's pretty much on that note, that's pretty much all I got to say about that. I hear you're Forrest. That's all I have to say about that. Yeah. No, and I agree with you. I think the big takeaways from this one is from an admin standpoint, recognise there's a natural disconnect between you and the rank and file. You know, recognise that and it's, it's not a bad thing, it's a, it's a natural thing, you can't, you can't stop it from happening, because you no longer on a day to day basis focus in that area. So recognise that there's a natural disconnect, but at the same time, try your best to bridge that gap, you know, keep in touch, you've heard me say it before, keep your finger on the pulse of the people, you know, keep in touch with with with the people in the rank and file, you know, make that effort. And when you make that effort, they're gonna make the effort, hopefully, if they're, if they're, you know, a good person, a good employee. And then, you know, continue to apply those leadership skills that were successful for you, coming up to the point where you are now, you know, Now, obviously, that doesn't really work. A person thought I had a good leadership skill, and it was actually crap. But you rely on feedback for that, you know, I always rely on you guys still do rely on you guys to give me feedback on how I'm doing things, you know? Because how else am I going to know what's what, you know, how am I going to get a report card on this, you know, I can't just constantly see everything. So I've got to have that feedback. And I think I think those are the two biggest thing is recognise that there's a natural disconnect, try to bridge it. And then also keep focusing on those same leadership skills Don't get so wrapped up in your new position, or your position in general, that you lose focus on those good leadership qualities that have helped make you or the company or organisation or whatever, successful to that point. Because it's once you abandon those names, once things started to go off track, you know, when when those employees or rank and file start to feel less valued, or that they are just another cog in the wheel. You know, I saw something, I was swiping through Tik Tok the other day. And there was, I think I told you last night, there was a sergeant first class on there that was talking about the attitude of the leader can dictate the attitude of the rank and file. And obviously, I'm taking some licence on that. But that was essentially what it was saying. And basically, the leaders attitude is going to be reflected in those that they manage or supervise. And, and I agree with that, you know, I really do, because if you've got a group of people that work well together, that's what winds up happening, you know, they, they wind up seeing you're upset about something or you got a negative attitude about something, and then it just kind of bleeds over into them and puts them in a bad mood, or whatever the case is, you know, so, so focus on those things. But then on the flip side of it, those of us that are not in an upper management position, we've got to take that step back and be willing to be more objective, be willing to know and understand that there are aspects of that administrative role, or the upper management role that we can't even begin to conceptualise. We have no understanding of what it's like to be in their shoes to feel their role and have to accomplish the task they have to have or have to accomplish. And the only example I've got of that is, you know, when I first got promoted to corporal and then to sergeant, I thought I knew, you know, when I moved into those roles at that, I thought I had it all figured out. But it wasn't until I was in those shoes when I'm you know, I'm having the especially when I was sergeant, especially when a sergeant I made a big deal, because now the buck stops with me, you know, good or bad a buck stop with me. And I would always accept that role. But you know, there there were nights or mornings that I'm on the way to the house going. Holy crap, dude. I don't I don't know. I don't I don't know about this. I don't know how I handled that. I don't know this, that and the other. But I did the best I could. And we as though as individuals that are not in those upper management positions, have to recognise that, that we don't know everything that we don't know, what those other individuals are going through what their job requires them to do. And that there may be aspects of their position or aspects of that level of management that prevent them from doing things that to us are so simple, you know, well, why can't we Why can't we get the newest this that and the other will, the dag on budget doesn't cover it? Well, why? Why? Well, because you got to have money to buy things. I mean, its the way it kind of works. That Something we it's a, it's like you said earlier, you know, it takes two people to dance, and that we have to be willing to both work at it. And it's once we decide to stop that is when the train goes off the tracks and we start making progress. Just my two cents 100%. And I'm just gonna reiterate one more time on that. For the guys that, like me are the lower level guys, just take a deep breath, step back, quit wasting energy on, you know, getting all upset that the upper levels are, you guys don't understand what they got going on. You know, you can vent to your friends and vent to your buddies, that's fine. Okay. But until you, you know, really take a step back and look and say, You know what, they probably have some other stuff going on, you know, they may not be able to get to my problem today, maybe they'll get just means quit wasting energy. Yes, I think that's the bit I mean, because when you start talking, especially when you have a big company, or you're in an agency, when somebody starts going off negatively, then people feed off each other, you know, and that doesn't do any good for the company or the agency either list, you know, you can vent a little bit, but then, you know, take a step back, take a deep breath, think, hey, there's something else going on? You know, maybe they'll get to this at another point in time. Yeah, there's a legitimate, or there's a legitimate reason why they need us to do it this way, and have an open mind and say, You know what, I see where you're coming from, and just do it, just just get it done, you know, make it happen, and, and everything will be alright. And then when you get to that upper level, you can do it how you want to do it, and then you'll come to find out Oh, wait, I can't do it the way I want to do it, because there's some other stuff I got to get done, you know, you know, it's a never ending problem. But it's okay. It'll be alright. You have a, I think we've pretty much touched on it all. And I believe, sir, if I remember from our conversation last night, that you have a cookout to get to, yes, that I was not invited to by the way, let's I want everybody to be aware that I was not invited to this cookout. I'm actually really upset about it. And I'm going to, I'm going to be texting the host of the cookout later on today, to let him or her know, that I'm displeased that I was not at least invited, I wouldn't have been able to make it. You know, who did get an invite? I don't want to talk about I don't want to talk about that. Um, so anyways, I, uh, I've thoroughly enjoyed, talk on leadership. I don't know all be all to leadership. I haven't, you know, been in those positions. But I feel like I have a good, you know, point of view from where I stand. Yeah. And, you know, talking to you, who's been a leader for quite some time now. And, and obviously, you're looking to progress up the ladder. I think you've made some good points, too. So. I would agree. All right, well, I don't have anything to add either. So I guess we'll go ahead and wrap this one up. Guys. 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